Welcome to the Joy Lab Podcast, where we help you uncover and foster your most joyful self. Your host, Dr. Henry Emmons and Dr. Aimee Prasek, bring you the ideal mix of soulful and scientifically sound tools to spark your joy. Even when it feels dark. When you're ready to experiment with more joy, combine this podcast with the full Joy Lab program over at Joy Lab dot coach.
Henry: Hello, I'm Henry Emmons, and welcome to Joy Lab.
Aimee: And I am Amy Prasek. So here at Joy Lab, we infuse science with soul to help you uncover joy. To do that, we focus on building the elements of joy, those positive emotions and inner states that become the building blocks for joyful life. So the element for this episode is equanimity.
It's a term that's been defined over millennia, uh, and discussed with other concepts like inner calm, serenity, contentment, inner peace. And some actually more recent definitions describe it as a even minded mental state or dispositional tendency toward pretty much anything and everything. So, I think it's important to note though, that this isn't the same as indifference or apathy.
This even minded mental state is where clear action can come from. And so in this episode, we're gonna explore equanimity, how it's been sought after throughout human history, some of the learnings we can take from those quests, and also five pathways we can experiment with to bring more of it back into our lives.
And I will just say that I think we really need it right now. I think we're all feeling this imbalance, very viscerally. Our planet absolutely needs this effort and realignment right now. So good time. Oh, so,
Henry: so true. And I really like that reminder that, equanimity or having a, a inner calm is, it's really a place to take effective action from it's, it's not the same as apathy.
That's really helpful. So let's give this a little bit more context. Here's a question that I bet has been on everybody's mind. What did the early stoic philosophers and the early Buddhists have in common? Well, they valued equanimity above almost everything else. And I think you'll find that much the same is true of all the spiritual traditions. We have talked before in this podcast about the four divine abodes in Buddhism.
Well, equanimity is the fourth of those divine abodes after loving kindness, compassion, and sympathetic joy. It's sometimes defined as the calm that comes from wisdom.
Aimee: I love that phrase. The calm that comes from wisdom. Uh, so equanimity is kind of like the holy grail of spiritual practices. Many wisdom traditions consider it whatever term they use for it, as a payoff for a well-lived life, for training your mind, for learning to treat others as you would wanna be treated.
And I also like to think of equanimity as our homeostasis. It's our natural state that is in balance with nature. And I think as we step into that balance into our authenticity, as we practice the elements of joy, then we recover and maintain that homeostasis, that baseline of inner calm. And it just comes naturally, like the sun rising in the morning.
And when equanimity is missing, when our mind is disturbed, it's a signal that something is wrong. And that something in our outer world or in our mind or heart needs some care. Something's out of balance. So I thought we could share a bit of our own stories, Henry. You know, how that turmoil, that inner turmoil might manifest. How that's normal and how it can inspire action. It can help us uncover joy and return to equanimity. So as usual, I'm gonna let you start
Henry: Thanks, Aimee. Like many of us, my early experiences of what I would call waking up came more from a sense of need that something was wrong rather than a genuine spiritual yearning of some sort.
So, um, When I was young, when I was in me in college, let's say, I just felt great. I was just doing well. I was a loving school, loving learning, I. being with friends, I just felt like I had no real problems and I kind of assumed that that was what life was like and it was going to stay like. And then I went to medical school and I don't know to this day if I just wasn't really ready if it really wasn't what I wanted in my heart to do. Um, or if it was just plain stressful, which it is. But I hit the wall and I was so stressed and found it so difficult. I mean, there were multiple times I thought about leaving medical school. But instead I, I found that nearby there was a Trappist monastery. So this is a, a Catholic contemplative monastic tradition, and I'm not Catholic. I didn't grow up Catholic. But I heard that you could go there and kind of, uh, be still or be quiet for a while. And have a retreat. Like a real quiet, uh, personal retreat. Um, they guide you a bit. And so I would go for, for several days and participate in their rituals.
Every, every day. They'd go through, I think, five different, times a day where they'd gather for prayer and chanting, and so forth. I just found it incredibly calming. And then they also, in the evenings, they would give us about a 45 minute talk and they'd train us in something. So I learned, uh, what was called centering prayer, which is really a lot like what most people know of as mindfulness meditation. It's, it's a way to quiet and your mind. And I just found it gave me a touch point. I went, you know, a couple times, two, three times a year whenever I could, whenever I had enough time. And it just helped kind of restore, refill me just enough that I was able to go back until I lost my balance again.
So I felt like I was able to, touch equanimity, but I certainly did not stay there. I didn't live in it, but it was enough and I continued that through all my four years of medical school and my four years of psychiatric training, that I was able to get through even with the stress and the inner doubt and all of those, those difficult things.
Aimee: It's interesting how Henry you were drawn to that stillness. That monastery sort of drew you in because you wanted to be still and calm. So we're gonna talk about how there's many pathways, and I'll just share my story because it's a little different than yours, Henry, but ultimately very much the same.
And so I too was a college student, but sort of the opposite of your temperament, Henry. I was grieving my dad's recent death. I had minimal coping skills at best, no health insurance for mental healthcare beyond the overcrowded campus services. You know, these are not unusual circumstances that people face.
I was so massively out of balance though. And so I too found the closest Trappist monastery. Actually I did not. I found an ultimate fighting gym in the city I was living in. It was like a legit U F C gym too. This was back before there were sort of any rules. And it mirrored my angry energy perfectly. So I was absolutely drawn in. About two months into my time there, there was an injury, no surprise. And our class was canceled. And, there was actually a yoga class happening at the same time. Somebody had sort of rented out a corner nook of the gym, to hold yoga classes. So I walked in and it was the opposite of my energy in that room.
It was calm and accepting. It was fluid. And thankfully, I think because I was feeling so defeated, I kind of just surrendered to that energy in the room. And that 60 minute experience really brought me back home. Back into that home of my body. That fight training was so outwardly focused, and so even though that sort of drew me in, it was really the opposite, uh, of what I needed.
You know, even though I felt like I needed to practice defending and hitting, I needed to practice letting go. And so I distinctly remember, and this is 20 years ago, the room was pretty dark. I can just see all the people and where everything was. I was totally still, which was very rare for me and uncomfortable.
But I distinctly remember standing in a simple mountain pose in that class and I could feel my feet firmly on the ground and I was in my body. And I felt this moment of peace sort of flow through my entire body, something that I hadn't felt in a lot of years. And that experience motivated me. Just that moment, like you said, just touching that.
It motivated me in so many ways, but really the most maybe powerful was the realization that my body, the present moment really, you know, it wasn't my enemy and the peace and the inner calm that I was so desperately searching for, it was also searching for me that equanimity, it was already within me.
Wow. A little different than your sin,
Henry: but the same. Well, yeah, exactly. I love your story and I hope that listeners can hear echoes from our stories in your own lives because we all have experiences that throw us off balance and eventually with any luck, they will compel us to search for more equanimity in our lives. And I think that's ultimately a very good thing.
So I'd like to switch gears here and talk a bit about the neuroscience of equanimity. Which is really also the neuroscience of stress. Just different sides of the same coin. I'll try to be brief here. There are two systems in the body that come into play when we're dealing with stress. Now, they talk with each other all the time, but let's consider them separately for a moment.
One of these systems is in the brain and the other is in the rest of the body. Pretty much everything outside the brain. And let's start there. I call this the stress response system. And it includes the adrenal glands where the stress hormones originate, and also the autonomic nervous system, which is what quietly runs most of the important activities and organs in our bodies.
Now, there are two sides to that that have pretty much opposite functions. The sympathetic nervous system turns on the stress response. And we all know what that feels like. And when the danger has passed, the parasympathetic nervous system, it's it's twin, turns it off again. It allows us to rest and digest, which is just what you wanna do after you have been in fight or flight mode.
Just like you, Aimee, after a good session at the Fight Club,
Aimee: Yes, that was my motto. Fight, fight, fight. Um, but actually really, I think that we know how to do that sort of fight, rest, and digest after something physical. Like a hard workout sort of feels easier. But when the stress is not so physical, you know, not so conscious, um, something that keeps pinging our stress response, we get lost in our thoughts.
I think that's when it's really hard to turn off that stress response.
Henry: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. That's, I think that's the problem that our stress response gets activated, which is exactly what it's supposed to do, but then we don't know how to shut it down again. And I think that's what almost all of us are experiencing these days.
We've just been on edge now for so long. So let's turn now to the brain. And again, there are two sides to this. And they also have more or less opposite, but balancing effects. This is what's called the GABA glutamate system. And those are referring to the two important brain chemicals that are involved with this.
Glutamate is activating. It's like putting your foot on the accelerator of a car and GABA is calming, kind of like pumping on the brakes. So you're probably starting to see a pattern here that we have these two parts of us that seem to oppose one another, but are actually just complimentary to each other.
They are designed to work to together, to keep us in balance. And it is a perfect design except that we're humans in the 21st century. And we are constantly thinking or doing things that throw us off balance. We're gonna come back to this later and talk about how to rebalance. But Aimee, first, why don't you give us just a taste of the, the science of equanimity.
Aimee: Yeah, the science of equanimity is sort of in its infancy and kind of messy at this point. But, here's what I love coming outta this research. Individuals who are taught practices that help them cultivate this state of equanimity, respond more calmly to a stressor that sort of follows that practice compared to individuals who have not engaged in an equanimity practice.
Now this is important. So it means that just with one practice, at least in the short term, a stressful situation that happens, folks are able to respond without stepping on the gas so hard. And, there's also this really interesting phenomena as well, um, that those individuals are able to accurately recall details of their environment during a stressful situation.
So they're more present. You can see how wise action might come outta that space when you can see what's around you. Here's another really important benefit. They're more likely to identify positive resources and strengths that they possess during a stressor. So this means that with these types of equanimity practices, we're more likely to perceive a stressor as a challenge instead of a threat.
And that ability is associated with like nearly every positive mental and physical health outcome because it allows you to approach or navigate a stressor to take action and then to hit the brakes, to let go of the stress. That's good stress. And in line with that, folks who do equanimity practices are more likely to return back to a calm state, uh, more quickly after a stressor.
And so with continued practice, as you continue to engage in these practices, all of these really important things continue to improve and in a way that makes the stress response look more like a challenge response, you know, a healthy natural stress response instead of these wild surges that stay high, that go high quickly, and that stay high for too long.
Henry: Yeah, I think that's so important for, for us to remember that stress in and of itself is not a bad thing. It's a normal thing. A healthy thing. And what's important is that we respond to it in more or less healthy ways. Looking at it as, as a challenge, stress is what kind of hones us to become more effective, more, more skillful.
Mm-hmm. So we've been talking a lot about dichotomies when two things seem to be opposite from each other. And here's another one. This time from Pamela Chodron, the Buddhist teacher, who we just love to refer to 'cause she's so good and how she talks about this. She calls this dichotomy wild mind and natural mind.
It's pretty easy to tell what they mean just from the terms. Wild mind is what it feels like when we are anxious, worried, stressed, or just thinking too much. Basically, it's what happens when we are caught up by fear and when it's really strong, it creates what feels like a mental storm, the exact opposite of equanimity.
Aimee: I love that term natural mind. It's such a great description of equanimity. And makes me think, you know, like a still body of water. You toss a pebble into it and of course it ripples, sends out ripples, that natural stress response, but the water is, by its nature more calm. So the ripples quickly disappear.
And that's the research that I just noted. That's what it suggests. As you continue to practice these strategies toward even mindedness, toward equanimity, your natural state, it moves the threshold for disruption up. You're not so easily set off, right. A pebble doesn't cause a mental storm, as you said, Henry.
It doesn't cause a hurricane.
Henry: Right, and it's just so important for us to remember at all times, no matter how we're feeling, that we have both of these capacities within us. Each and every one of us has the natural mind as well as the wild mind. But I bet if we ask which of the two you identify with the most, you'd probably say Wild Mind. And Pema Children has a very simple explanation for this. She says it's because you have been training in Wild Mind. You started as a baby with a little bit of it, and you've just been getting better and better at it as you get older. Can't you relate to that? I, I sure can.
Aimee: Yeah. It's also such an empowering way to look at it, I think, because, uh, it's easy to think that we feel the way we do because of all the things happening to us. Or all the things that might happen to us. And a lot of stuff does happen to us. But, equanimity comes before action. So I said before, equanimity is an apathy or indifference.
It's not saying we should stay silent or not act. So the equanimity comes before that action. It's that body of water that influences everything. And from that perspective, it's really about training or practice. We have a say in this, right? What have we done to create the mind we have right now? What have we practiced?
You know, we've repeated patterns again and again until they've become the way things are. And what can we do to create the mind we want a year from now, 10 years from now? Um, what we're saying is that you can create something different by practicing something different. We can take a different path.
That's what we do here at Joy Lab.
Henry: Right. So in that spirit, we would like to share five pathways to inner calm or to equanimity. Now we're just gonna touch upon them here on the podcast, but we really get a chance to dig into them in the Joy Lab program where we practice ways of thinking and being that help create a state of equanimity. A new homeostasis.
With time, we can live more of the time in our natural mind and maybe just visit the Wild Mind once in a while. So Aimee, why don't you start us off with these five pathways
Aimee: Sure. All right, the first one is to use or learn to use your body. I think it's worth saying here that the type of movement can matter.
At least it does really for me. Um, I think a lot of folks will agree and some good research to support this as well. Um, and that's sort of different when we're looking at just exercise for mood boosting effects, where sort of anything is great, but when we're working to reclaim equanimity, I think it can really help to engage in something that is not so outwardly focused.
Uh, something that isn't so focused, you know, on competition or other people's abilities or responding to other people's actions or abilities. And I know these types of activities can feel pretty uncomfortable at first, you know, to just sort of be with your body, to be with yourself. Um, and maybe feelings come up. But you know, to not have those distractions or comparisons to take you away from that present moment, it can be hard, but I think that's our body wisdom saying like, oh, hey, you haven't been here in a while. Let's get reacquainted. And so, activities like walking, swimming, dancing, tai chi, even weightlifting, yoga, rock climbing. Even lots of group fitness classes that have that more sort of focused inner attention, can be really helpful here.
There's tons of options. That's what I love about this. And when you really find something that works for you, even if it takes a little practice, sort of get in the flow of it, you're really sort of retuning, recalibrating your body mind system, helping it to navigate back into that balance.
Henry: The second pathway is learn to direct your mind. Left to its own, the human mind likes to jump around a lot. You've probably noticed that. It's often referred to as monkey mind. Imagining the monkeys kind of jumping from branch to branch and a whole group of 'em just creating a raucous. And it's an obstacle for nearly everyone who is trying to learn how to quiet their mind.
I actually think this might be why some people become kind of addicted to stress. Because one positive from the stress hormones is that they do help to focus the mind. But obviously we don't want to have to be stressed all the time just so that we can focus. We want to be able to direct our attention, to place our attention wherever and when ever we choose to.
Now, most of us need help doing that. We need some kind of an object or something to focus on, especially at first. So Aimee, I think you're gonna share a really great way to do that.
Aimee: Yeah, the third pathway to inner calm or equanimity, learn to breathe. So I think of the breath, like a bridge between mind and body. It connects your physical self with the realm of consciousness. It's regulated by the vagus nerve. Uh, that sort of information superhighway that's responsible for so much of the communication between body and mind. This is a particularly accessible pathway, learning to breathe, because you're breathing all the time. And you can feel your breath.
It gives your mind something to focus on while it settles down. And there are lots of breath-focus practices and meditations you can do. We do a lot of these in Joy, Lab, in the program. And actually I'll share another one we do at our house. Uh, it'll likely be familiar to anyone who's ever had a kid in the last 10 years or so.
It goes like this: "when you feel so mad and you want to roar, take a deep breath, and count to 4. 1, 2, 3, 4." We do this a lot at our house with our three and a half year old. It's actually really great. I actually do it a lot now too. And now I know you guys are gonna have it in your head, so apologies for that Earworm.
But that's Daniel Tiger. I think it's good for both kids and adults. Um, so even with just a saying like that, it can help you to practice riding the waves of your breath. It can be that simple, particularly when you catch yourself in agitation or anger or fear. So you can ride that, um, rise and fall and it really helps you to actually sort of ride the ups and downs of your life.
Henry: That's so cool. I just became a grandfather and I can't wait to teach Alma of how to do that, so thanks. Thanks. You'll, you'll hear it. Yeah. So the fourth pathway is learn to grow your awareness. I often think of mindfulness as a systematic means of seeing more clearly, of seeing things as they really are.
Awareness includes the ability to focus your mind, but it is actually much more than that. It is also the means by which we can set aside our assumptions, our memories, our judgments, our fears. In other words, we can free ourselves from all the constructions of the ego. The stuff that we've basically just made up.
What's left is just what is. The plain, simple truth. And that could be oddly reassuring because the truth is never as bad as what we fear. There's one more thing we need to practice in order to live with more equanimity. It's the fifth pathway. We have to learn to accept what is. Now, obviously this is not always easy.
None of us wanted to be restricted by a pandemic. We don't want to lose a job or a relationship. We certainly don't want a loved one to die. There is so much that we don't want. And so we resist. We wish it away. Or we get mad about it. But we would feel better, tons better if we could let go instead. And we can actually. We can train ourselves to stay in our natural mind, seeing very clearly what is. Not denying it, but also letting go of our reaction to it.
Aimee: That realization is so powerful. Resisting versus letting go. I think resisting, you know, as you said, Henry, it takes so much effort and letting go offers us what we want when we're resisting. I think, you know, to be free of that attachment, that fear, that worry.
Just takes some practice to let go. And we can all do that. We all deserve that freedom, that inner calm, that equanimity. I think Joan Halifax actually has a quote that says it much better than me, uh, and I wanna close with it. And I'll shorten it just a bit as well. So she writes:
"Equanimity is grounded in the experience of letting go. The world in and around us is constantly changing. What kind of mind and heart can stay strong and open and not fall prey to conditioned reactions. Can we grieve fully and not cling to our grief? Can we feel the pain and not cling to it? Can we be with the unknowable and open to trust at the same time? The mind that has realized the truth of change and the truth of cause and effect can do this. Planting seeds of kindness, love, compassion, and joy, helps us ride the waves of change without drowning.
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